Curse

byteme! · Jan 06, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

......... PvP.......
Yeah I won't comment on PvE.

Can you say, "irrelevant"?! You're not on the same page.

4thVariety · Jan 06, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

1. 2. 3. *snip*

you might not have noticed my post being about PvE only. Even then, the reaction window of GW is huge compared to a Street Fighter 4 tournament. On top of that, your awareness of the battlefield as an interrupter is limited at best. You can only observe one enemy and have to guess the rest. it is not as if you saw what everybody was casting and tried to gauge what best to interrupt in any given situation.

Still PvP has that giant mountain of highly volatile and dynamic situations that have to be met with the proper reaction. PvE does not have that. Yet people hate on some PvE skills not promoting skillful play without defining what that is in the first place.

The Josip · Jan 06, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Mesmer skill update. For mesmers only. No CoP crap which others will use.

Yelling @ Cats · Jan 06, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Funny how people whine about overpowered crap, but they only target farming spells.

Soul reaping is still overpowered and is the basis for Sabway and all its variants, team builds that degenerate the mind. It's 'godmode' on team level. PvE only skills like SY!, cons etc.

Upcoming nerfs have nothing to do with balance, but with ingame wealth and jealousy.

p sure I've gone on the record in other threads stating that SY! is ridiculously strong.

Sabway is WAY overrated, but it is a step up for the "terrible" players that plague most of PvE...hence why it was looked at as a godsend.

Either way, there's a pretty big difference in "an 8 person team that can dominate fairly easily", and a "1 person team that can clear out most areas in the game while taking no damage".

Do both need looked at? Probably. If only one can be looked at? Definitely the builds that can solo 8-man areas.

toocooltang · Jan 06, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Whenever something got nerfed to the ground, some were rejoicing and claiming the nerfed skill required no skill to play anyway. But in over four years nobody was really able to tell me what that "skill" was supposed to be and how it is defined.

Skillful play is the succesful combination of multiple different class types, each playing different roles in a team build using organized tactics and strats to complete any content in the game.

This can be broken down even further but there is no need on guru because it would become a wall of text. The reason why most speed clears aren't skilful play is because of the fact you split off and solo different things or because you simply run with 5 or 6 of the same type of class to complete an area.

EDIT @cats

SY! is really really stong, but sadly guildwars right now has two major camps for elite areas. Teams that use SY, and teams that use SF. Sadly this has been the case for along time. I want to see a major skill balance that really shakes up the meta. Change SF and SY! but then give us some other options to play around with for defense. I don't want to see SF get nerfed just to see OF become the replacement, I don't want to see SY get nerfed just to see a tactis/prot/command buff that easily replace it. I want a new meta with new skills, tactics and builds required. After 5 years, and many many times in every elite area the only fun thing left is making new builds and testing them.

The Drunkard · Jan 06, 2010, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Whenever something got nerfed to the ground, some were rejoicing and claiming the nerfed skill required no skill to play anyway. But in over four years nobody was really able to tell me what that "skill" was supposed to be and how it is defined.

To me skill is using the right skills at the right time. It's dshoting patient spirit by predicting how the monk plays under pressure, not by having a perfect connection or good reflexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

If Gun Pierson says it is all about jealousy and wealth, he is spot on. You never hear the people playing Shadow Form, or Ursan, or Cryway, or Sabway, or Tank&Spank, complain about the game being too boring. It is always the people not playing these builds causing the debate.

Bullshit, I've played with the degenerate meta for quite some time now, and have gotten fow armor, expensive minis, and cash titles because I run the builds. Though I'm not against ursan (cons were the real problem) or tank'n'spank, there's no challenge with SF,sab, 600/smite, or cryway because they're so strong. Compared with other teambuilds they should be nerfed. A lot of people posted on this thread agree it should, but the debate stems from HOW they should nerf it. Let's take a look at 600/smite. The problem I have with the team is spellbreaker- a skill that nullifies the esential counter to the team. If that skill were to be changed so that it could no longer be maintainable against a big mob, then I believe the team would be ok, since other profs could farm as effectively (330 rit/derv.)

SF has created a huge argument because it is so flexible. On one hand I enjoy the skill to farm, but on the other I have no support for a skill that can clear a dungeon quickly and without the need of other teamates.

If you want to make a bold statement, you should at least stop selectively reading posts in this thread/other threads. People have given their own beliefs here and in other threads, so don't think your comment is going to hold any water in a discussion.

mrvrod · Jan 07, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Funny how people whine about overpowered crap, but they only target farming spells.

Soul reaping is still overpowered and is the basis for Sabway and all its variants, team builds that degenerate the mind. It's 'godmode' on team level. PvE only skills like SY!, cons etc.

Upcoming nerfs have nothing to do with balance, but with ingame wealth and jealousy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Whenever something got nerfed to the ground, some were rejoicing and claiming the nerfed skill required no skill to play anyway. But in over four years nobody was really able to tell me what that "skill" was supposed to be and how it is defined.

(1) Selection of eight skills cannot be skillful play, as this is outsourced to PvX wiki.
(2) Pushing eight button can also not be skill as it is hardly complicated.
(3) Reacting within fractions of a second cannot be called skill in GW, since people can observe and interrupt one monster at best and no single monster requires that amount of active attention. GW is best played with more passive defenses.
(4) Reacting to dynamic events is also not skillful play in GW-PvE. It simply has no place there as elite dungeons are best played predicting the raid down to minute details.

If Gun Pierson says it is all about jealousy and wealth, he is spot on. You never hear the people playing Shadow Form, or Ursan, or Cryway, or Sabway, or Tank&Spank, complain about the game being too boring. It is always the people not playing these builds causing the debate.

Both above are spot-on! I've been saying all along it's about e-peen. Jealousy that someone else is gonna get your armor, or your weapon, or you ectos, or your titles. Whatever it is that you treasure in this game more than life itself! Play to have fun, then you won't care what everybody else is doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

p sure I've gone on the record in other threads stating that SY! is ridiculously strong.

Sabway is WAY overrated, but it is a step up for the "terrible" players that plague most of PvE...hence why it was looked at as a godsend.

Either way, there's a pretty big difference in "an 8 person team that can dominate fairly easily", and a "1 person team that can clear out most areas in the game while taking no damage".

Do both need looked at? Probably. If only one can be looked at? Definitely the builds that can solo 8-man areas.

Hey Yelling, still waiting to see a screenshot of SF "SOLOing" an elite area. Any time anyone throws up a supposed "solo" screencap, you'll always notice heroes or a second player. Hmmm, Why do they need someone else if it's GodMode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

SF has created a huge argument because it is so flexible. On one hand I enjoy the skill to farm, but on the other I have no support for a skill that can clear a dungeon quickly and without the need of other teamates.

Let's see the screencap. It must be of a permasin doing a dungeon SOLO as you claim. No people, no heroes, no henchmen. Still haven't seen this mythic beast.

Page Down Warhammer · Jan 07, 2010, 06:10 AM // 06:10

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/Me...27s_Exile_Solo

I don't need a screencap to tell you its do able. And not hard. I've done it.

And yes it can't do Duncan on HM wah wah... there is a solo build for that too.

Owik Gall · Jan 07, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Hope the major update is close at hand. I'm getting anxious to see if they did anything to tactics and a lot of popular solo farm builds like 600 smite. Ofc I'm looking forward to what they will do to SF too.

lishi · Jan 07, 2010, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

----stuff----

If Gun Pierson says it is all about jealousy and wealth, he is spot on. You never hear the people playing Shadow Form, or Ursan, or Cryway, or Sabway, or Tank&Spank, complain about the game being too boring. It is always the people not playing these builds causing the debate.

I have a shadow form assassin and i have a 600 monk too who is dtcing for kurz faction.

I started to Dayway near the end of year and from my 30-40 ecto i happen to have about 120. Plus a Dhuum's soul reaper.

Now, if you have read my previous post you know i'm up for the nerf, but there is a small voice inside me saying.

Sigh, i guess i wont be able to get the mini Dhuum
Sigh, i guess it will take forever to get the title
etc

What im trying to say here?

No, not all the people who want the nerf are jealous.

Most of people don't want the nerf because it will slow down their ecto gaining.

Mcsnake85 · Jan 07, 2010, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

I have a shadow form assassin and i have a 600 monk too who is dtcing for kurz faction.

I started to Dayway near the end of year and from my 30-40 ecto i happen to have about 120. Plus a Dhuum's soul reaper.

Now, if you have read my previous post you know i'm up for the nerf, but there is a small voice inside me saying.

Sigh, i guess i wont be able to get the mini Dhuum
Sigh, i guess it will take forever to get the title
etc

What im trying to say here?

No, not all the people who want the nerf are jealous.

Most of people don't want the nerf because it will slow down their ecto gaining.

Im ok with or without nerf, but there is a thing that i still dont undestand : Jealous of what? Im REALLY JEALOUS if your Obbsidian Sword deal 100-200 damage instead my poor 15-22 sword...then yes,Im Jealous..all ppl that dont have Obbys are jealous if deal more damage, but we all know that a good looking skin sword deal the same damage of a crap skin (blue) Sword...so i repeat : jealous of what?
(PS: i have all good skin weapons, so im not jealous).
I use 55 Necro, Perma , Ele , and learning 600 monk..im using ritualist and a lot more..so i have no problem, btw ppl need stop to say jealous to other because in GW have no sense...or..wait..your unded mini Ghostly Hero deal damage in combat and help??SO YES!!Im jealous!!!

4thVariety · Jan 07, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Skillful play is the succesful combination of multiple different class types, each playing different roles in a team build using organized tactics and strats to complete any content in the game.

One could argue that this is exactly what FoW-SC or UW-SC does. Different roles, highly organized, very little room for error on many parts. This is not something you can do five minutes after buying GW; provided you got the skill unlocks instantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

To me skill is using the right skills at the right time. It's dshoting patient spirit by predicting how the monk plays under pressure, not by having a perfect connection or good reflexes.

As I said earlier, PvE definition please. You won't contribute much to a PvE team by waiting for the one skill you deem worthy of your interruption. That is not skillful in PvE, that is wasting a slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Bullshit, I've played with the degenerate meta for quite some time now, and have gotten fow armor, expensive minis, and cash titles because I run the builds.

So it was ok to play when you were greedy for loot, but now that you had your fill, you are suddenly against it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

SF has created a huge argument because it is so flexible. On one hand I enjoy the skill to farm, but on the other I have no support for a skill that can clear a dungeon quickly and without the need of other teamates.

Why not just ignore SF then, leave it to those who still see the fun in that and play with some other people? Do not believe that an absence of SF will instantly fill all district with poeple who have seen the light and are ready to play full team raids with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

If you want to make a bold statement, you should at least stop selectively reading posts in this thread/other threads. People have given their own beliefs here and in other threads, so don't think your comment is going to hold any water in a discussion.

Wait, you try to dismiss my argument by telling me I am not allowed to take a side? I believe it is more than valid for me to point out one common denominator that has stayed the same across many years in any "nerf this" discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Sigh, i guess i wont be able to get the mini Dhuum
Sigh, i guess it will take forever to get the title
etc

What im trying to say here?

No, not all the people who want the nerf are jealous.

I am willing to bet that if the method of acquisition for a Dhuum mini was less grindy and less random, nobody would want it.

Lack of jealousy and greed is not just not wanting to farm 1000 ectos is a repetitive way. We need to be able to say "let them be". The live-team can only do so much and if the live-team is constantly chasing after the ghosts of grinders, Linsey & Co will have no time to implement changes that really bring full teams back together again.

A few months ago, grouping suddenly exploded again and people were forming full pug teams left and right. That was not the result of killing a skill, that was the result of introducing Zaishen quests.

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Nerfing SF won't magically bring back the old days.

But it will make playing other builds more enjoyable.

Why? For the same reason some people find SF fun in the first place: the idea of "best".

People like playing SF because it is the best build available for almost anything. This is impossible to ignore. When you play your warrior or mesmer, you are playing an inferior build. This is not "fun". Or at least, not as fun as it should be, because in the back of your mind there will always be that part that realizes that your build is inferior.

Nerfing SF may limit the "fun" of people who use it, but not nerfing it limits the fun of everyone else. So what's more important? The fun of sins, or the fun of every other profession? The answer should be obvious. Everyone should have access to a build that can be called "the best"; something that contributes in ways no other profession can. It's simply unfair for one profession to be as mechanically superior as assassins are.

Anet made 10 professions. If they're going to make most of them useless, then why even have them in the first place?

Gun Pierson · Jan 07, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

Im ok with or without nerf, but there is a thing that i still dont undestand : Jealous of what?

I use 55 Necro, Perma , Ele , and learning 600 monk..im using ritualist and a lot more..so i have no problem, btw ppl need stop to say jealous to other because in GW have no sense...or..wait..your unded mini Ghostly Hero deal damage in combat and help??SO YES!!Im jealous!!!

I'll help you understand... Humans are playing this game. It doesn't have to be an überweapon, a mini polar bear does nothing to your stats ingame, they're just pixels, yet they go a thousand ectos each. Pixels, not stats.

Ignoring the jealous nature of humanity is Utopia. An illusion of a perfect society and community. The greeks already talked about it over 3000 years ago, I'm sure you can understand it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Either way, there's a pretty big difference in "an 8 person team that can dominate fairly easily", and a "1 person team that can clear out most areas in the game while taking no damage".

Indeed they can clear out areas but they're not used in that role to play for example the story line. Most people didn't start the game playing a perma. It's a farming build used in specific areas, not the whole game. Versus Sabway, which is indeed imo overrated too (too slow) but it is used to beat the game. But nobody cares, as there is less gold and ectos involved.

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2010, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Just because they aren't doesn't mean they can't.

Also, according to Anet, SF is being used for VQs now. VQs, of all things.

If it's being used for that, chances are people are using it for everything, including general play.

Gun Pierson · Jan 07, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If it's being used for that, chances are people are using it for everything, including general play.

If you were right, 90% of the population would be a sin by now and you would rarely see another profession in towns, which is not true. Even in ToA (sin's paradise), they hardly make up 1/3 of the players there.

Sure some vets will use them to do other stuff, but that's not the mainstream in today's GW imo.

LR_Malbec · Jan 07, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

A few months ago, grouping suddenly exploded again and people were forming full pug teams left and right. That was not the result of killing a skill, that was the result of introducing Zaishen quests.

I generally don't comment on these topics I just lurk & smirk, but I really agree with this poster in general and specifically the statement quoted above.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 07, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

People like playing SF because it is the best build available for almost anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

...When you play your warrior or mesmer, you are playing an inferior build.

And that is the big problem with SF,yes there may be other stuff that are also overpowered.But SF is so overpowered that playing anything else is stupid and not a choice.

People keep saying to play something else if you dont like SF but that is not a real choice.

There are still people that say WoH is overpowered,but is it anywhere near SF?Of course not.

Mcsnake85 · Jan 07, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I'll help you understand... Humans are playing this game. It doesn't have to be an überweapon, a mini polar bear does nothing to your stats ingame, they're just pixels, yet they go a thousand ectos each. Pixels, not stats.

Ignoring the jealous nature of humanity is Utopia. An illusion of a perfect society and community. The greeks already talked about it over 3000 years ago, I'm sure you can understand it too.

Ok ok..I can understand, im jealous too for something, but for fist time, in a game ,im not jealous because i know that your ULTRA MEGA >SKIN< weapon have same stats of mine and dont gave you advantage in game, same for minies,tonics and ectos( and Money)...
Why ppl keep to be jealous of those things?You dont need a Obsidian Edge to deal 15-22 damage, just forge a simple sword from norn/asura/Vanguard and you are ok....if you have money and you can buy Obby ok, good for you but this dont change nothing.
I was jealous on D2 when Paladins with hammers lv 30 cause over 3000 damage on mobs and im only 2000/2200...this is a reason to be jealous..
I dont know if you guys understand what im say...
Nerf or Buff no make difference for me, im just sad because i cant use my fireball because IT SUCK hard , like a good 50% of other ele skill...and i QQ hard when i saw Dryder cause me 225 damage with a fireball when i can deal a max of 80 damage..comeon guyz, this is a good thing?Mobs better than a "hero"???

I forgot a thing : I prefer deal a lot of damage instead "GODMODE".

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

If you were right, 90% of the population would be a sin by now and you would rarely see another profession in towns, which is not true. Even in ToA (sin's paradise), they hardly make up 1/3 of the players there.

Sure some vets will use them to do other stuff, but that's not the mainstream in today's GW imo.

Didn't say all people are doing it.

Just the smart ones who don't give a damn about game balance.